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Topic:   No ceiling in furnace closet. - 794 visits (1 today, 5 this week)

Eric Shuman
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posted January 25, 2006 03:28 PM         

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This a gas furnace closet in an interior hallway of the house. There is no ceiling in the closet. It opens directly into the attic above. The door to the closet is sealed. Someone has brought a large piece of duct in from the attic (right side), I guess for combustion air. It terminates about halfway down into the closet. I am aware of the 12in. from top and bottom rule for combustion air, but what if the ceiling is completley open?

Questions:

Does there need to be a ceiling in the furnace closet? (fire spread etc.)

If not, does it need this ductwork for combustion air? The attic is sufficiently vented to the outside air.

Eric Shuman
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posted January 25, 2006 06:13 PM         

Any takers on above post?

Tony Keith
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posted January 25, 2006 06:31 PM            

sure, I'll bite. it needs a ceiling for sure, fire rated, 5/8 drywall, with a metal fire stop/collar around the flue.

I would leave the makeup air intact, make sure it is close to a vent. Have the doors changed to louvered. No metal collar needed for make up air duct at ceiling.

Gunnar Alquist
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posted January 25, 2006 06:37 PM            

Eric,

I don't think that sealing the ceiling (try saying that out loud) is necessary. Typically (around here) the combustion air vent opens directly through the ceiling and into the attic, so a fire wall would be superfluous. If the flex duct is providing combustion air, I would expect it to be closer to the floor. Is there a vent opening at the wall or floor for the lower combustion air?

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Eric Shuman
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posted January 25, 2006 07:19 PM         

Thanks guys,

Tony,

The door is sealed because it has to be to prevent carbon monoxide etc. from entering the supply system, as the return air intake is directly below the unit (and door).

Gunnar,

There is no vent for the lower combustion air, only the duct midway into the closet and the open ceiling.

Section G2407.11.2 in IRC 2000 spells out a "one opening method" that talks about opening into the attic as long as the attic has direct communication with outside air and as long as the opening meets the 1 in. per 3000 btu/hrof the total input rating of all equipment located in the enclosure etc. But the illustration shown appears to be assuming that the enclosure is truly enclosed i.e. with a ceiling.

The way I normally see it around here is a normal closet--walls a door and a ceiling-- and an opening within the lower 12 inches of the enclosure and the upper 12 inches, both of which draw air from the attic (on a slab home).

So I am wondering if the completly open ceiling would meet the requirements of the "one opening method". Unfortunately I did not write down the btu rating before I left the inspection.

By the way, I have a friend named Gunnar Seaquist. His family is of Swedish descent I believe, how about yours? Just curious with the similar name.

Gunnar Alquist
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posted January 25, 2006 07:21 PM            

Eric,

Yes, way back in the distant past someone was Swede. Me, I'm pure Californian.

Jerry McCarthy
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posted January 27, 2006 11:32 AM            

Closet ceiling covering not required.

Don't know what else is going on as I'd like to have seen a photo of the whole enchilada?

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Richard Stanley
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posted January 28, 2006 05:39 AM            

Opening in ceiling is breach of fire blocking between attic and living area unless door to furnace compartment is fire rated/solid core and weather sealed. Combustion air should be taken to compartment via 2 metal pipes (sized in accordance with BTU requirements) from attic or exterior to upper and lower areas of compartment. Other criteria may apply such as loose construction. Usually, the only place I find attic openings above gas appliances in the living area is in older homes. This probably meets the requirements of loose construction.

Mike Schulz
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posted January 28, 2006 04:54 PM            

You no I call out in new construction when they instal only one duct for air. One upper and one lower is the way it should be but for the code boys around here only one is needed as long as it meets the net free area required for the Btu.
Mike

Tony Keith
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posted January 28, 2006 05:00 PM            

How about one make up air duct, with two openings........ one high and one low.

Evans Neumann
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posted March 01, 2006 09:10 PM            

The ceilings were left out of the closets in most houses around here up until the mid 60's. What better way to supply upper combustion air. If the ceiling is open, it is pretty difficult fo the opening to be covered with insulation. I realise the opening can become a chimney in the case of a fire, but so can a regular combustion air opening.
Just an opinion

Rick Hurst
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posted March 01, 2006 09:50 PM            

It appears in the picture that maybe the ceiling drywall has been removed. You can see what appears to be nails with gypsum on the nail heads.
Click for photo (66040 Bytes)

Rick

Bob Harper
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posted March 02, 2006 07:12 PM            

1) fireblocking missing
2) firestop missing
3) improper make up air
4) B-vent locking band loose on lower section at that duct board
5) probably improper clearance to B-vent
6) what is that white crap on the upper sections of B-vent? Duct seal mastic? Condensation? Also, that top joint looks funny. Is all this Hart & Cooley or is that single walled pipe of another brand?
7) if there is CO in this "closet", the return leaks will inhale it into the ducts and distribute it throughout the home.
8) energy codes would not allow this gaping hole in the thermal envelope of the house
9) if this room is 'sealed', then how do you access it to service it?
10) MUA requires a minimum cross-sectional area of 100 square inches, which equates to a round pipe 11-3/8ths inches. However, since they are using flex, factoring in a 20% derating means each flex duct MUA would need to be 12"rd. without kinks.
11)any door is no guard against CO movement, esp. when there is a pressure gradient.

If you say no ceiling is required then you're asserting this closet is, in fact, part of the attic. Therefore, all the insulation in the closet floors, walls, firestops, fireblocking, etc. would apply but C'mon guys, this is no different than any other space in the living area, which should reside within the thermal envelope of the house. Besides, if it is technically in the attic and you say the door is sealed then
a) how are you going to get to it for access and
b) how are you going to remove the equipment?

I don't care how you slice it, I don't see how this is acceptable gang.

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Dave Mortensen
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posted March 03, 2006 04:38 PM            

No fire wall protection called for in this instance or in a full sized utility room with furnace, gas water heater and gas dryer. Doesn't seem to make any sense when fire separation is called for between the garage and living spaces, but I haven't ever found anything in the code to require it. Dave

Eric Shuman
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posted March 04, 2006 08:22 AM         

All, thanks for the renewed interest in this post.

I pulled the follwing code from the 2003 IRC. It seems to apply in this case for makeup/combustion air if the BTU ratio is correct (unfortunately I did not make a note of the BTU information in this case, now I always do.) The attic communicates freely with the ouside air, and this closet communicates freely with the attic above.

"G2407.6.2 (304.6.2) One-permanent-opening method.
One permanent opening, commencing within 12 inches (305 mm) of the top of the enclosure, shall be provided.(yes) The equipment shall have clearances of at least 1 inch (25 mm) from the sides and back and 6 inches (152 mm) from the front of the appliance (yes). The opening shall directly communicate with the outdoors or through a vertical or horizontal duct to the outdoors or spaces that freely communicate with the outdoors (yes)[see Figure G2407.6.2] and shall have a minimum free area of 1 square inch per 3,000 Btu/h (734 mm2/kW) of the total input rating of all equipment located in the enclosure , and not less than the sum of the areas of all vent connectors in the space (not sure about btu but probably, given the size of the opening at the ceiling)."

As far as fire danger, according to code and not just common sense, I am still uncertain. In IRC, fireblocking is defined as:

" Building materials installed to resist the free passage of flame to other areas of the building through *concealed spaces*."

Would a closet be considered a "concealed" space? I alway interpreted this to mean concealed as in areas between stud walls or enclosed soffit areas etc.

Then I found this:

Acoording to IRC definitions:

CONCEALED LOCATION. A location that cannot be accessed without damaging permanent parts of the building structure or finish surface. Spaces above, below or behind readily removable panels or doors *shall not* be considered as concealed.

Thus, I would not consider this closet a concealed space. By the way, when I stated that the closet door was sealed I meant sealed with a weather tight seal (weather-stripping at all 4 sides). The door opens into the hallway in the house.

All other references to fireblocking in IRC refer back to the "IRC 602.8 Fireblocking required." section which once again relies on the phrase "concealed spaces".

So Dave, in repy to your comment, I can't find anything in the code either about firewall protection needed in this closet, even if it seems to be a no-brainer. (fire-rated walls in the garage are stated fairly clear in the IRC)

If anyone knows the clear code about this, please chime in.

This inspection was finished a couple of months ago (I recommended that client have the issue evaluated by licensed HVAC tech) but the topic and issue are bound to come up when I inspect in this neighborhood again, so I want to know as much as I can.

Thanks,

Eric

Bob Harper
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posted March 04, 2006 04:29 PM            

If you say a ceiling isn't required in this closet then why put one in the bedrooms or anywhere else upstairs? Without a ceiling here, the house is nothing more than a glorified chimney.

If you read R602.8 completely, you will see the intent is to form an "effective barrier" btw floors and btw upstairs and the attic. The code assumes you will install a ceiling in the rooms of a house and those that aren't rooms are concealed spaces. Either this is a room or a concealed space. Either way, it needs a lid. If you can get into this closet without damage to permanent construction, it is a room and requires a ceiling. If it is concealed, then it requires fireblocking.

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Dave Mortensen
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posted March 04, 2006 06:29 PM            

That's what I though too, that the code would "assume" the ceiling would be drywalled, unfortunately the seller wanted a code reference for this particular problem noted in my inspection report, and I could not find one. So I would like to see it spelled out specifically if any one has it. Dave

Jerry McCarthy
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posted March 06, 2006 09:59 AM            

GB (sheetrock) is not a code requirement in residential construction either in the I Codes or Uniform Codes except for fire/smoke protection between a house and an attached garage. Fireblocking/stopping is required however at areas so listed in both codes. (IRC Chap 6 & UBC Chap 7)
If anyone can point out an appropriate code requiring such I will prepare a 6 egg omelet for my face.

If the guys claiming that there must be a fire protection ceiling covering in a mechanical closet how do you explain ceiling vents within those closets?

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San Mateo, CA

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Phillip Stojanik
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posted March 06, 2006 01:13 PM            

Here in Houston these kinds of installations have been permitted for many years. Keep in mind that Austin may have different rules in place. The AHJ has to sometimes take several aspects of the code into consideration and usually ends up making a judgement call about interpretation and enforcement.

Locally, the judgement has been made that omitting the ceiling in such a closet to directly communicate with a ventilated attic is equivalent to having “All air from outdoors” (G2407.11) via the “One opening method” (G2407.11.2)

“G2407.11 (304.11) All air from outdoors. The confined space shall communicate with the outdoors in accordance with Section G2407.11.1 or Section G2407.11.2. The minimum dimension of air openings shall not be less than 3 inches (77 mm). Where ducts are used, they shall be of the same cross-sectional area as the free areas of the opening s to which they connect.”

“G2407.11.2 (304.11.2) One opening method.
One permanent opening, commencing within 12 inches (305 mm) of the top of the enclosure, shall be provided. The equipment shall have clearances of at least 1 inch (25 mm) from the sides and back and 6 inches (152 mm) from the front of the appliance. The opening shall directly communicate with the outdoors or through a vertical or horizontal duct to the outdoors or spaces that freely communicate with the outdoors [see Figure G2407.11(4)], and shall have a minimum free area of 1 square inch per 3,000 Btu/h (734 mm2/kW) of the total input rating of all equipment located in the enclosure, and not less than the sum of the areas of all vent connectors in the space.”

Locally, the alcove/closet itself must also meet requirements defined by other sections of the code. For example: Exception #5 of G2406.2 - Prohibited locations… “Appliances installed in an enclosure in which all combustion air is taken from the outdoors, in accordance with Section G2407.11. Access to such enclosure shall be through a solid weather-stripped door, equipped with an approved self-closing device.”

The alcove/closet walls are also treated locally as attic kneewalls and require insulation on surfaces that separate conditioned from unconditioned space.

Additionally, clearance and access criteria from other code sections are also taken into consideration….

“M1305.1.1 Central furnaces. Central furnaces within compartments or alcoves shall have a minimum working space clearance of 3 inches (76 mm) along the sides, back and top with a total width of the enclosing space being at least 12 inches (305 mm) wider than the furnace. Furnaces having a firebox open to the atmosphere shall have at least a 6-inch (152 mm) working space along the front combustion
chamber side. Combustion air openings at the rear or side of the compartment shall comply with the requirements of Chapter 17.

Exception: This section shall not apply to replacement appliances installed in existing compartments and alcoves where the working space clearances are in accordance with the equipment or appliance manufacturer’s installation instructions.”

“M1305.1.2 Appliances in rooms. Appliances installed in a compartment, alcove, basement or similar space shall be accessed by an opening or door and an unobstructed passageway measuring not less than 24 inches (610 mm) wide and large enough to allow removal of the largest appliance in the space, provided that a level service space of not less than 30 inches (762 mm) deep and the height of the appliance, but
not less than 30 inches (762 mm), is present at the front or service side of the appliance with the door open.”

“M1305.1.3 Appliances in attics. Attics containing appliances requiring access shall be provided with an opening and a clear and unobstructed passageway large enough to allow removal of the largest appliance, but not less than 30 inches (762 mm) high and 22 inches (559 mm) wide and not more than 20 feet (6096 mm) in length when measured along the centerline of the passageway from the opening to the appliance. The passageway shall have continuous solid flooring in accordance with Chapter 5 not less than 24
inches (610 mm) wide. A level service space at least 30 inches (762mm)deep and 30 inches (762mm)wide shall be present along all sides of the appliance where access is required. The clear access opening dimensions shall be a minimum of 20 inches by 30 inches (508 mm by 762 mm), where such dimensions are large enough to allow removal of the largest appliance.

Exception: The passageway and level service space are not required where the appliance is capable of being serviced and removed through the required opening.”

As you can see, this is one of those circumstances where it is hard to find an exact single code reference that says specifically that you can or can not do a certain thing. This is also one of those areas where those of us who do discuss code with our clients can get into trouble. These kinds of somewhat subjective calls regarding code interpretation should only be made by the local code authority and not by us. If you are unsure what the local code authority has to say about a particular circumstance, just give them a call and ask. More often than not they are willing to clarify the issue for you.

Brent Koerting
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posted March 06, 2006 05:34 PM            

I'm more familiar with uniform codes. But here the combustion air must be taken through a metal duct that extends into the attic, not just an open hole.
The requirements I see are draftstopping for a chase.

Jerry McCarthy
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posted March 07, 2006 01:52 PM            

Brent

I'm fairly familiar with the Uniform Codes, but you got me on that one.
Are you saying if there is no covered ceiling in a mechanical enclosure one must be installed so that a ceiling vent can be installed into the attic for a source of combustion air?

Quote section please?
Thanks

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San Mateo, CA

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Ralph Pimentel
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posted March 19, 2006 10:22 AM            

Fellow Inspectors,

In response to the concern over a mechanical room with no separation at the ceiling and the combustion requirements, I would like to provide you with the prespective of a former Chief Mechanical Inspector.

Firstly, although installing a ceiling in this location makes sense for energy conservation and to provide some fire/smoke control between the mechanical room and the attic, it is not a requirement of the IRC, the UBC or the One & Two Family Dwelling Code.

With respect to the combustion air configuration, the mechanical room with an open ceiling into an attic that freely communicates with the exterior, would allow proper amounts of combustion to enter the mechanical room.

Supply ducts within this mechanical room that provide cooling must be insulated with an approved vapor barrier.

The tight fitting door is intended to reduced the infiltration of unconditioned air from the attic throughout the rest of the house.

Notwithstanding any adopted Model Energy Codes or local amendments, this particular installation does not warrant immediate action.

I hope the information has been helpful.

Ralph Pimentel C.B.O.
Member ICBO, IAPMO, ICC

Brett Foster
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posted March 19, 2006 03:45 PM         

Great topic! Run into this all the time.

I just look at it simplistically - bonehead idea to have the attic space open to the furnace (or water heater closet. All the negatives of not having a ceiling tremendously DO NOT outway the positives of having a ceiling/fireblock.

Okay, you want code? Why? Common sense guys. Let it prevail. It's like saying you need a code to NOT put that window seat against the bottom sash of the third story window somone was asking about. There is no code for that. Bonehead idea.

Don't put toooooo much weight on CODE. If you are fearful of not having "THE CODE", than at minimum whats' wrong with RECOMMENDING a friggin ceiling/fireblock?

Another take: Let the seller yell at you. So be it you called out for repair. The buyer is not going to yell at you for trying to protect him and his family?

Brent Koerting
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posted March 20, 2006 06:05 PM            

Hello Jerry:

What I was saying is the space with the ducts/vent passing through is a chase and should be draft stopped which is just having a ceiling or any drywall or even plywood across the top.
The other I'm talking about is taking the combustion air from the attic should be made to extend up with a metal sleeve into the attic beyond the ceiling. M1703.4 of the International residential code states similar to the uniform codes that a metal sleeve shall extend at least 6" above the the ceiling joist and insulation. That alone eliminates just having an open hole regardless of the draft stop.

Jerry McCarthy
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posted March 26, 2006 04:04 PM            

Brent
If the mechanical room had a ceiling I'd agree with you.
However, what I was talking about is what Ralph described.
There is no building code that requires ceiling coverings anywhere within a single family residential dwelling. (unless it's multiple dwellings units, which do require fire separation)

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Jerry McCarthy
San Mateo, CA

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