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Topic:   knob and tube wiring - 4491 visits (4 today, 16 this week)

Brian E Kelly
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posted March 14, 2007 06:04 AM            

Had an "electricion" just call me in reguards my report. He was upset that I stated in my report presence of live know and tube wiring, and I stated this as a hazzard and saftey concern. He kept telling me that there was no code that states that this is a hazzard and he stated that according to engineers the knob and tube is the safest and best system out there if installed properly. My statement to him was that I did fine live K&T wiring and noted it in my report and that I also stated the safety hazzard and it should be replaced by a qualified electrician. He said that I was scareing the customer and I shouild not mention this much less bring it to the customers attention.
What I am asking for is 2 fold.
1 Am I not right in stating this in my report as I said?

2 Where is there info that I can givve to my customer to better explain the hazzards of K&T from another source other than my and or the "electrician's" word.
Any thing would help.

Also Is there a web site that I can acess on the electric codes?

Thanks

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Brian Kelly
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David Banks
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posted March 14, 2007 06:47 AM         

Brian. "My statement to him was that I did fine live K&T wiring and noted it in my report and that I also stated the safety hazzard and it should be replaced by a qualified electrician."

Not necessarily true so I would leave that out of my report.Next time you talk to him tell him most insurance company's will not insure a house with knob and tube and that's why you recommended replacement.
This is what I include in my report about knob and tube. You are correct in warning your client about this type of wiring.

KNOB AND TUBE WIRING: This home is wired with Knob & Tube (K&T) wiring. This is the original electrical system in the home and is outdated by today's safety standards. The major problem with this system is the insulation on the wires is brittle and in some areas missing. It was also not designed to be covered with any material such as attic insulation. It should be noted that many insurance companies would not insure homes that have K&T wiring. For increased safety a licensed and qualified electrician will need to evaluate the home for replacement of all K&T wiring in the structure.
Dave

[This message has been edited by David Banks (edited March 14, 2007).]

John Arnold
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posted March 14, 2007 06:57 AM            

I see a lot of knob and tube, and the fact that it is a problem is never questioned.
I always mention the insurance problem, the old brittle insulation, the fact that it is often improperly tapped into, often buried in insulation in the attic.
It may have been just dandy when it was installed, but that was a LONG time ago.

Scott Patterson
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posted March 14, 2007 09:55 AM            

Brian, I think that you reported it properly. It can be and is a safety hazard.

It is old and needs to be replaced. Plain and simple.

The boilerplate that David posted is fine, in fact I think it's is mine or Jim Katen's. Anyway, you can not understate the problems associated with K&T.

Jim Luttrall
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posted March 14, 2007 10:03 AM            

Sounds like the electrician is really a realtor in disguise.

In all seriousness, the knob and tube system is and was a very safe system IN IT'S DAY but it's day has passed. Very few K&T systems have not been modified, damaged, covered with insulation, etc. Even fewer systems are adequate for todays electrical demands, not to mention lack of grounding.
If you don't mention it, you may be buying it...
Jim

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Jerry Peck
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posted March 14, 2007 11:59 AM            

Sorry Dave,

But I agree with John, Scott and Jim ...

*IT IS* a problem.

*IT IS* a safety hazard.

*IT DOES* need to be re-wired.

Did you ask the electrician for his real estate agents card, you are selling your house and need a friendly agent ...

My guess is he is one of those who goes around 'trouble shooting' for real estate agents, collects his $minimum fee and the goes on to the next one, quite likely not doing much actual work.

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Michael Thomas
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posted March 14, 2007 12:23 PM            

Brian,

"Knob and Tube Wiring Insurability Issues"
http://www.wishtv.com/global/story.asp?s=747312&ClientType=Printable

Trent Tarter
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posted March 14, 2007 03:52 PM            

Brian this what I use when I find some energized K&T wiring.

This property has some "knob and tube" wiring, which was commonly installed prior to 1950. It is ungrounded, and considered unsafe by today's standards. Over time, the wire's insulation may become brittle and fall apart or wear thin, resulting in exposed conductors and a risk of shock and/or fire. This wiring is also easily damaged by covering it with insulation (a common practice), and incorrectly tapping new wiring into it.

Some energized knob and tube wiring was found during the inspection. It is not within the scope of this inspection to determine what percentage of this property's wiring is of the knob and tube type, or to determine what percentage of the knob and tube wiring is energized vs. abandoned. A qualified electrician should evaluate this wiring and make repairs or replace wiring as necessary.

Note that some insurance companies may be unwilling to offer homeowner's insurance for properties with knob and tube wiring. Recommend that the client(s) consult with their insurance carrier regarding this.

Brian the primary reason knob and tube is considered unsafe is because it is very old. Some insurance companies do not insure homes with K&T or charge a higher premium.

Phillip Stojanik
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posted March 14, 2007 04:07 PM            

I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion but that particular electrician would never be MY electrician holding that particular opinion. If he is willing to come out and evaluate the functional characteristics of a 50+ year old K&T wiring system in modern use AND give it his personal blessing then I guess that is his prerogative.

Tim Moreira
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posted March 14, 2007 09:57 PM            

You did ask him to put that in writing on his companies letter head, sign and date it and send you a copy for your records...right

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Brian E Kelly
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posted March 15, 2007 05:42 AM            

Just had a call from buyers agent and an e-mail from my client. Apparently the so called "electrician" was not representing the buyers. Go figure. Both the Buyers and the buyers agent had told me that they were very happy with my report and the K&T wiring was just as dangerous as I had stated in my report. The buyers agent had made me feel that there are good real estate agents out there, and looking out for there clients best interest.
Well there's my 2 cents
Thanks for all the input it helped alot

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Brian Kelly
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John Arnold
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posted March 15, 2007 05:48 AM            

"there are good real estate agents out there"

Yes, there are. I work with some of them. They never challenge me and seem genuinely interested in our shared client's benefit. Some of them actually get into the "game" and love it when I find something big that they can clobber the listing agent over the head with.

Craig Martin
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posted March 15, 2007 09:44 PM            

Just do it the Chicago Way

Craig Martin
East Dundee, IL

Richard Moore
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posted March 15, 2007 11:56 PM            

Here's my KT mess from today.

Click for photo (99592 Bytes)

Actually a bit of everything; KT, AC, old cloth covered NM and a bit-o-romex tossed in. Had about a dozen variations of this througout the basement. Totally FUBAR and definately a hazard!

Brand new, "clean", 200-amp service panel though, with new grounding (rods and water supply entrance) and all piping (hot,cold, sewer and gas) freshly bonded. All for a grand total of two (yes, 2) grounded receptacles in the whole house! You have to wonder what was going through the electrician's mind as he strung the GEC past all the screwed up wiring. I'm not blaming him, as the panel was probably all the homeowner was willing to pay for, but it's gotta be tough to walk away from a job half (make that a qaurter) done.

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Joe Griffin
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posted March 16, 2007 04:34 AM            

Richard, I see this every day on average. I love when the listing sheet or the listing agents refer to it as "upgraded wiring".

I correct them and tell them it is a "service upgrade" not a wiring upgrade.
Blank stares abound.

Keep L@@kin

Richard Moore
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posted March 16, 2007 12:59 PM            

Yeah, I love "Listing Speak".

They didn't actually mention the new service, but this little 1926 home had "lots of original charm"! Like original furred up plumbing. Original and failed retaining wall. Original broken and clogged roof drains. Original no insulation. Original cramped kitchen, etc, etc. All that "charm" and this lovely "1/4 bath" for only $570K!
Click for photo (71596 Bytes)

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Rick Hurst
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posted March 16, 2007 01:31 PM            

Richard,

Maybe they confused the toilet and the water heater on which one had to be 18" off the floor due to gas fumes.

You would think they would lower that TP roll just a bit for safety and sanitary reasons.

Actually that place looks like something from a Texas cellblock.

Rick

Russel Ray
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posted March 16, 2007 04:29 PM            

Here's one of my K&T from this past week. I thought it had snowed in the attic, but then I remembered that I was in San Diego.
http://www.abouthomes.info/marketing/attic%20k&t.jpg

John Steinke
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posted March 16, 2007 06:19 PM            

This forum has been over the issue many times, and this time is not likely to change anyone's opinions one bit.

The fact remains that the NEC allows the continued use of K&T wiring. You are even allowed to continue existing circuits with this method. K&T, by itself, is not bad, defective, unsafe, or have anything wrong with it.

That said....

K&T is very likely to have other issues. When you see K&T wiring, it is these other issues that need to be explored, and possibly called out.

The first few are matters of maintenance. Insulation is likely little more than dust near light fixtures, as the result of over-lamping. There is likely a fusebox, which is likely to be over-fused. The wires are likely buried in insulation. Wires may have been damaged if the attic was used for storage.

The next area to examine is one of "improvements." New receptacles and circuits are likely to have been added, as the place was remodeled over the years. These efforts often result in the incorrect joining of different wiring methods, and 'double lugging' at the fuse box. Two prong receptacles are likely to have been replaced with three prong ones.

The final area of concern is the way our needs have changed over time. The original kitchen may have had but one receptacle (mine does). This is certainly not enough for a modern kitchen. The bath may not have any receptacles at all. And so on...
Again, if the place has been remodeled, it is not likely that the electrical was properly updated.

These are things to look for, and report. Simply stating "K&T is bad" is neither correct, nor likely to impress anyone.

There are many other issues associated with older homes; it's better to focus on those issues, and not simply assume that }old" = "bad."

Jerry Peck
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posted March 16, 2007 07:25 PM            

John,

"The fact remains that the NEC allows the continued use of K&T wiring. You are even allowed to continue existing circuits with this method."

Actually, that's *not* what the NEC says about it.

This is ...

From the NEC. (bold and underlining are mine)
- II. Installation

- - 394.10 Uses Permitted.
- - - Concealed knob-and-tube wiring shall be permitted to be installed in the hollow spaces of walls and ceilings or in unfinished attics and roof spaces as provided in 394.23 only as follows:
- - - - (1) For extensions of existing installations
- - - - (2) Elsewhere by special permission

- - 394.12 Uses Not Permitted.
- - - Concealed knob-and-tube wiring shall not be used in the following:
- - - - (1) Commercial garages
- - - - (2) Theaters and similar locations
- - - - (3) Motion picture studios
- - - - (4) Hazardous (classified) locations
- - - - (5) Hollow spaces of walls, ceilings, and attics where such spaces are insulated by loose, rolled, or foamed-in-place insulating material that envelops the conductors

Russel posted a very good photo showing when and when K&T should not be used.

You *are not allowed* to extend an existing K&T wiring circuit under any of the conditions stated above in 'Uses Not Permitted".

"Simply stating "K&T is bad" is neither correct, nor likely to impress anyone."

No one here is "trying to impress anyone", and, calling K&T "bad" is correct. If K&T *were not bad*, it would be allowed to be extended without all those conditions. Remember, the NEC, like all codes, is simply the crappiest one is legally allowed to get away with. Nothing more. Not good, and definitely not better. While YOU may not feel an obligation to YOUR clients to tell them how crappy K&T is, most HIs do feel they were hired to advise the client of the condition of the house, and if the house is crappy, that is what the HI is hired to tell their client.

"There are many other issues associated with older homes; it's better to focus on those issues, and not simply assume that }old" = "bad." "

You know, you almost went through a post without telling us HIs *what not to inspect* ... "almost" ... but you still did.

Besides all of the other issues with K&T wiring, the insulation which is left (*IF ANY*) is likely shot and deteriorated (unless you happen to find one of those newer extensions to an old K&T circuit which used conductors with thermal plastic insulation instead of varnish wrapped or rubber insulated ... but that was more likely than not installed incorrectly anyway) - meaning the K&T conductors need to be abandoned and replaced (actually, I prefer to rip the old K&T out so it does not accidentally get re-used by some unsuspecting homeowner doing it themselves ... "Hey, Cool! John left this old wiring up here, I can just tap into it here, and tap off it down there ... ").

Still have not figured out why you do, but you always tell us what not to do ... are we HIs making you work to hard correcting crappy wiring?

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[This message has been edited by Jerry Peck (edited March 16, 2007).]

Jim Luttrall
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posted March 16, 2007 10:46 PM            

Jerry, You may have a history with John which I do not recall, but I have to disagree with your take on what John posted.
I read what John said as being very similar to what you said.
John said that Knob and Tube wiring is allowed to be used by the NEC and you posted the verbiage which supported what John said in an effort to refute his position.
You both appear to be very knowledgeable guys that are on the same (or at least very similar) sides on this issue.
I did not take John's post to mean NOT to inspect or to call out problems, but rather to be knowledgable in our statements when we call out problems with K & T.
After all we cannot cite the NEC and say it is not allowed under any circumstances (according to your post) but we CAN say it has X,Y,and Z problems.
On the facts of the issue, you seem to be saying the same thing.
Now personally, I tell my clients it is old, has these problems and needs to be replaced. I have NEVER seen a system that is in good shape that needs no repair, yet.
Jim

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dick whitfield
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posted March 17, 2007 08:44 PM         

I agree with John...old does not equal bad.

If an istallation of K&T is pristein then then why would you call it bad?

Tim Moreira
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posted March 17, 2007 09:05 PM            

quote:

---

If an istallation of K&T is pristein then then why would you call it bad?

---

Because it is 50 year old wiring.

And the insulation is most certainly deteriorated.

And what happens when someone get shocked up there while storing junk?

And the new homeowner may not be able to get insurance.

And have you ever seen K&T that was pristine?

And?

And?

And?

IMHO

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[This message has been edited by Tim Moreira (edited March 17, 2007).]

Jerry Peck
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posted March 18, 2007 03:00 PM            

I agree with Tim.

It is only "pristine" when newly installed, from that point on it begins to deteriorate.

After 40-50-60+ years, the insulation will no longer be "pristine", it will most likely be, at best, marginal.

Seems like we have two electricians who are willing to nod their head in approval of antiquated wiring, is that representative of electricians around the country?

We have many (perhaps most?) home inspectors who acknowledge that just because something old like knob and tube has not caused a fire ... yet, does not mean it is "safe", and it certainly does not mean it is "pristine" either.

Perhaps home inspectors see the big picture better?

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Frank Bombardiere
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posted March 18, 2007 06:56 PM            

This is a couple of examples of how I usually see them. Click for photo (91837 Bytes) Click for photo (71025 Bytes)

I make my clients aware of the issues as well with similar verbage that some of you posted.

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[This message has been edited by Frank Bombardiere (edited March 18, 2007).]

Jeff Gainey
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posted March 19, 2007 09:28 AM            

I have a lot of exposure to knob and tube in my area and agree that it is an accident waiting to happen with the improper treatment/upgrades done to it. I have had a couple run-ins with realtors also. They want to tell their client that its just like old galvanized piping-- when it breaks, just replace what is needed and eventually you will eliminate it. Then they get upset when I say that unlike the galvanized, when one of the runs of K&T fail, it may burn the house down before you can fix it.
Also clients may not be aware of the limitations of fixing knob and tube from an electricians view. They are not able to repair these older circuits due to their liability,but must run new wiring from the problem back to the distribution panel which will cost more.
Here are a few from my files that show why it should be replaced..
Click for photo (54475 Bytes)
Click for photo (67306 Bytes)
Click for photo (58849 Bytes)
Click for photo (569956 Bytes)
Click for photo (34656 Bytes)

After finding these repairs or outdated connections, I try to let my clients know that it may be what you can't see that may cause problems.
A different adventure everyday...Jeff G

[This message has been edited by Jeff Gainey (edited March 19, 2007).]

Craig Martin
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posted March 19, 2007 09:10 PM            

Jeff - great pictures.

Craig Martin
East Dundee, IL

Jerry Peck
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posted March 20, 2007 05:22 AM            

But, but, but Jeff ...

That first photo shows an "unused" K&T, so what's wrong with that?

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Jeff Gainey
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posted March 20, 2007 09:46 AM            

Jerry,
It would be fine if the wires on the left weren't live and the connections exposed. I think many people would look at this thinking it is harmless until they touch the wrong side. Many times I find the older knife blocks and older light fixtures are left in the basements with exposed connections that were typical for the day. One insurance agent told me at a home I was inspecting that they are most concerned with the older fixtures still in use due to the shock hazard and exposed connections.
A different adventure everyday...Jeff G

Jerry Peck
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posted March 20, 2007 10:13 AM            

Jeff,

I was referring to the other posts on another thread which said exposed wires were OK as long as they were "unused". As stated by two electricians.

"It would be fine if the wires on the left weren't live and the connections exposed.

Kinda what I told them.

Those wires would need to be disconnected on both ends of both sets, capped (with wire nuts) and in a junction box. Or, just pull them out, then there is no problem with them *possibly* being "unused".

Jack F. gave a great example of NM cable which was "unused" ... it's still in the box on his workbench.

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Jeff Gainey
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posted March 20, 2007 07:50 PM            

Just like the crawl space I almost inspected today. 1-3 inches of water and I was in my waders. I would have had to low crawl to get under beams and through the water. No problem until I saw the extension cord running through the water to the unseen end of crawl space.There were also some sheathed wiring in the distance running through the wet floor. I came out and told the buyer I would not be able to get through the crawl until it is drained and dried out or the power was off. They said the pest inspector was able to go through today although he came out very wet. I said good for him. He was braver than I am in that situation. Unless I can see both ends of the cord or wiring, I was not about to take the chance.
Click for photo (5798 Bytes)
Click for photo (5994 Bytes)
I agree with you on the unused wiring Jerry, Other than that it is abandoned and potentially dangerous.
A different adventure everyday..Jeff G

Jerry Peck
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posted March 20, 2007 08:01 PM            

Jeff,

Did you notice the 'high water mark' on the duct which was hanging down low?

That crawlspace GETS WET, REAL WET!

Glad you came out alive.

By the way, I'd recommend replacing that duct work, but you already did that anyway.

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Jerry Peck
Ormond Beach
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posted March 20, 2007 08:12 PM            

Jeff,

Your a lot braver than I am. I for one would never wade/crawl through a water filled crawl space. Too many unknowns and add to the fact the wire you mentioned? No thanks. I don't get paid enough for that.

The crawl space had better be dry and snake free for my a** to enter it.

Thankfully, in my area, 99% are slab.

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posted March 21, 2007 05:12 AM            

Not that I am that brave but I will attempt to do it as long as I don't need scuba gear. I could tell when I arrived I would find a wet crawl from the look of the yard.
Click for photo (25381 Bytes)
A different adventure everyday...Jeff G

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posted March 21, 2007 09:49 AM            

Did you see Martians who landed in that flying saucer back there?

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posted March 21, 2007 10:41 AM            

When did Weber start making those flying saucers?

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posted March 21, 2007 11:06 AM         

"When did Weber start making those flying saucers?"

They have always made them. The Grille was the decoy.
Dave

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posted March 21, 2007 11:16 AM            

Here’s a photo of a K&T job that’s in pristine condition, however, insulate the attic and all bets are off. My take on K&T wiring for many years has been; Discover, Disclose, Disclaim, & Defer. The insurance angle alone would dictate reporting it or stand a good chance of buying it. Add to that the fact that not many home-owner electricians when confronted with K&T wiring can keep from running open splices off it?

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[This message has been edited by Jerry McCarthy (edited March 21, 2007).]

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posted March 21, 2007 12:10 PM            

Jerry M.,

I'll bet you took that photo back in 1937 too, right after it was installed, you sly old fox.

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posted March 21, 2007 01:38 PM            

39

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posted March 21, 2007 01:57 PM            

Jeff G.--
I sure hope that picture you took of the yard wasn't of an oft-used septic system... Yikes!

RR

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posted March 21, 2007 02:05 PM            

A few years ago, there was a plumber here that went into a wet crawl space. His body was found 3 days later - still smouldering.

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posted March 21, 2007 06:08 PM            

That sure is pretty K&T Jerry M. Having never seen that condition wiring, are you sure it wasn't in an electrical museum somewhere?

Richard R. Luckily this was city sewer. Since it was on the outskirts of town, I did question whether there could have been an abandoned system in this location though. There was a storm sewer within 25 ft at the corner. I just told them to install an in ground pool and they already have the water for it.
Sorry for the drift...Jeff G

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posted March 24, 2007 06:47 PM         

Send all your K&T problems to me. I wll look at them the give a profesional opinion. Not a HI opinion. There is a difference it seems.

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posted March 25, 2007 05:03 PM            

I don't know the difference in opinion between yours and an HI's. The wiring will be the same and the issue with the insurance company policies will be the same. They won't care that you say it is pristine and a safe system. They will look at the statistics on how many fires are caused by older wiring and refuse to insure the home. As stated before, the worst part of a butchered knob and tube wiring system seen during an inspection is what you can't see.
I appreciate the offer but I feel capable of evaluating it myself. There may be some realtors that would like your opinion of how safe the system is to sell the idea to the buyers.
A different view everyday...Jeff G

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posted March 29, 2007 07:03 PM         

If the K&T is in the same state it was in when it was installed then there is no problem with it. That means it is still installed in free air and the knobs and the tubes are intact.

If it has been covered by insulation or has been damaged by foot traffic or stored items then there is a problem.

You have to mention it in a report as being what it is but being old does not mean it is in need of imediate repair.

In my opinion the HI is supposed to help the buyer make an informed decision...not make the decision for them..

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posted March 29, 2007 07:11 PM            

Dick,

quote:

---

You have to mention it in a report as being what it is but being old does not mean it is in need of imediate repair.

---

Is that what you would tell your client about a 20 year old asphalt roof?

"It's old but...it's not leaking, so no need to worry about it.

I think not.

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posted March 30, 2007 10:24 AM            

Tim,

All Dick has to do, according to him (see other thread), is to dry that out too.

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posted March 31, 2007 03:17 PM         

A leaking roof is not performing it's intended function and is need of immediate repair. You should know that but it seems you don't.

And Jerry....I'm sorry you have gotten lost but it seems you have.