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Author
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Topic: Electrical service disconnects - 651 visits (1 today, 9 this week)
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Alan Shelton
New Member
 Posts: 4
From:Fountain Hills, AZ
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted February 04, 2004 04:50 PM
  
Can anyone direct me to the year that the current standard of no more than six switches/throws to disconnect all power to a home was adopted in the NEC? I recently inspected a home with two sub-panels and no main disconnects, only branch circuit breakers. The buyer (my customer) asked me when that became "Code". I did tell him that I was not doing a "Code" inspection. However, I am now curious as to when that was adopted. You always get those comments from sellers and Realtors that it must be grandfathered.Thanks for the help. |
Richard Moore
Member
    Posts: 575
From:Seattle, WA
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted February 04, 2004 05:05 PM
Alan...I can't help you with the date...maybe someone else can. I curious though about the reference to two sub-panels. That would seem to imply that there was a service panel elsewhere. What was between the meter and these panels? Richard |
Alan Shelton
New Member
Posts: 4
From:Fountain Hills, AZ
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted February 04, 2004 05:33 PM
The two sub-panels were mounted at the exterior of the home next to the underground service entrance. The service entrance conduit was attached to a service meter panel that was sealed (utility company locks). There was an accessible raceway under the meter panel and sub-panels that contained the conductors feom the se panel to the subs. I have attached a photo.
[URL=http://inspectionnews.com/ubb/uploads/elec panels.JPG]Click for photo (145748 Bytes)[/URL]
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Jerry Peck
Member
  Posts: 1115
From:Pembroke Pines, FL
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted February 04, 2004 06:18 PM
Maybe the 20's or 30's, maybe before? All I know is it has been like that 'forever' (before my memory).Are you sure you were not looking at a split bus panel? To the unknowing, it looks like a regular panel "at first", then, when you start looking, you notice that one set of the top fuses or breakers feeds the bottom set. Now, go back and count the top set, there will be 6 (or less if not all are installed). ------------------
Jerry Peck
South Florida |
Jerry Peck
Member
Posts: 1115
From:Pembroke Pines, FL
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted February 04, 2004 06:21 PM
Alan,You MUST not use spaces in your file names. I find it best to use an underscore "_" for a space. Such as elect_panel.jpg Try it again, but DO NOT use a space in the file name. Thanks, looking forward to the photo. ------------------
Jerry Peck
South Florida |
Richard Moore
Member
Posts: 575
From:Seattle, WA
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted February 04, 2004 06:56 PM
Here is Alan's panels... Click for photo (67685 Bytes)
I shrunk it a bit.Hard to see the breakers but the labeling doesn't appear to indicate a split bus (the one on the left might be). The panel below the meter has no screws, just the snap. Alan...was there a main disconnect or two in that hinged(?) panel? The GEC seems to be coming from there. The set up looks too new for any "grandfathering". Richard
[This message has been edited by Richard Moore (edited February 04, 2004).] |
Jerry Peck
Member
Posts: 1115
From:Pembroke Pines, FL
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted February 04, 2004 08:19 PM
I pulled out a close up and lightened them and changed the contrast (so the breaker would stand out in the photo more).Yep. Looks like they could be regular panels. Many split bus panels have a blank twist out between the upper and lower sections. Many, but not all. Would have to see those with the covers off. I just can't imagine an electrician going to the trouble to do it right with a wire gutter from the meter, then up to each individual panel and not provide a proper disconnecting means. The problem, even if these are split bus panels, is that there should be no more than six, and a split bus panel would provide that six, EXCEPT that there are two panels, of 12 mains. Would not be good anyway. I'm wondering, could those panels have been set up for the OPTION of having a main installed? Then they just weren't? That would make much more sense (and it would be infinitely easier to correct - just install a main in each and replace the SECs from the wire gutter to the new main disconnect in each panel). ------------------
Jerry Peck
South Florida |
Alan Shelton
New Member
Posts: 4
From:Fountain Hills, AZ
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted February 04, 2004 08:40 PM
There are no split bus bars. There are separate feeders in the raceway below from the meter panel to the top of the bus bars. There is no option for a main disconnect in either panel. This will not be an easy fix and will require the utility company to disconnect power since there is no other means to disconnect. This was a first for me.The sellers agent is refusing to correct this defect claiming it is "grandfathered" because it must have passed the municipal inspection when it was built. Bet ya never heard that before.
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Alan Shelton
Advanced Construction Consulting
Fountain Hills, AZ |
Douglas Hansen
Member
Posts: 65
From:Palo Alto, CA
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted February 04, 2004 09:26 PM
The "six disconnects" rule is pretty old. Until 1928, a single service disconnect was required. Then the NEC expanded the rule for buildings with 2, 3, or 4 meters, allowing each of them to have a separate disconnect. In 1933, they said that a single family residence could have a service without a main disconnect provided there were no more than 6 circuits and they were controlled by breakers grouped in one location, not by fuses. It's never been OK to have more than 6, at least not in the NEC.Douglas Hansen |
Tim Lorenson
Member
Posts: 84
From:Roseville California
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted February 04, 2004 10:01 PM
I have always assumed that this code was to provide fast shutdown of the electric system in case of an emergency.They might want to have "drills" to practice flipping 12 breakers in the shortest amount of time. You might ask the Realtor if they feel it is important to get the power off fast when there is an electrical fire, or a child is being electrocuted. |
Richard Moore
Member
Posts: 575
From:Seattle, WA
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted February 05, 2004 12:37 AM
Tim...
...or maybe the sellers agent could get a waiver signed by the local fire department. Alan... I would imagine that an electrician could change the guts of the blank panel beneath the meter to include a main disconnect(s) there. The other two "sub-panels" could then be left as is. Just pulling the meter would safely disconnect power for this task and shouldn't involve the power company until their re-inspection. Still not cheap though. Richard
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Jerry Peck
Member
Posts: 1115
From:Pembroke Pines, FL
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted February 05, 2004 04:35 AM
Douglas,Thank you for that information. My books do not go back that far, so I couldn't even look it up. So, before it was six, it was one. Very good to know. ------------------
Jerry Peck
South Florida |
B Johnson
Member
Posts: 143
From:
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted February 05, 2004 09:06 AM
Ask the Sellers Agent if he wants to call the AHJ and see what they have to say. If they go that route there is the chance the AHJ will turn off the lights until it's fixed.Another good source of electrical info is over at Mike Holts page.
http://www.mikeholt.com/cgi-bin/codeforum/ultimatebb.cgi I believe you must register to post. ------------------
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Alan Shelton
New Member
Posts: 4
From:Fountain Hills, AZ
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted February 05, 2004 02:54 PM
Thanks for all of the replies. I knew that the requirement was old (prior to 1980 when the home was built). The big issue beyond turning off all power quickly is not having the ability to disconnect power to the bus bars/terminals at the interior of the panel for service or repairs. If an electrician were to replace a circuit breaker he would have to work on hot panel. Not a good idea. In the Phoenix area, the local power companies frown heavily on anyone breaking their seal and removing a meter to disconnect the power. Perhaps a cord and plug connection at the main underground SE cables would work  ------------------
Alan Shelton
Advanced Construction Consulting
Fountain Hills, AZ |
Richard Moore
Member
Posts: 575
From:Seattle, WA
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted February 05, 2004 04:17 PM
Alan…I don’t want to belabor this but an electrician would have to pull the meter to upgrade any service equipment panel or make repairs involving the main lugs or SECs whether it had a main breaker or not. My understanding is that the power company applies a new seal after “inspecting” the completed work. Are you saying that licensed electricians aren’t allowed to do this in your area? As for replacing or adding breakers to a hot bus-bar. I’d guess that this is the way it’s done 99% of the time. No problem at all as long as the breaker is off.
Richard Moore
] [This message has been edited by Richard Moore (edited February 05, 2004).] |
Bob Ross
Member
Posts: 91
From:Deshler, OH
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted February 05, 2004 05:52 PM
Alan,
This looks like a low bidder set-up; panels without main breakers cost a lot less. I would defer to qualified sparky because I would bet that other corners were cut too.Semper Fi!! ------------------
Bob Ross
www.RossResidential.com |
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