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Topic:   Whats the code on range hoods? - 5202 visits (10 today, 63 this week)

John H. Moss
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home inspection posted July 17, 2003 11:03 AM           Edit/Delete Message


I know in new construction range hoods are required in most areas; however, is it grandfathered in; do you guys call it out if there is no range hood on an older house; do you recommend a range hood at the client's discretion; or what? Thanks

John
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Susan Cieslewicz
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home inspection posted July 17, 2003 06:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Susan Cieslewicz   Click Here to Email Susan Cieslewicz     Edit/Delete Message


John,

All fuel burning appliances must be vented to the outside...also, depends on the manufacturers specifications. There also should be at least a 30" clearance from the range top to the hood bottom. (this to can vary depending on manuf. specs.)

With new construction especially, don't be surprised to see appliances that require no venting. Always ask to see the manuf. specs. I saw a range hood a few days ago that was rated to 160 feet!!

As far as older homes with no vent hood, I would note it as a recommendation. Check with your local AHJ for specific mechanical codes.

Good luck,
SC

[This message has been edited by Susan Cieslewicz (edited July 17, 2003).]

John H. Moss
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home inspection posted July 18, 2003 05:27 AM           Edit/Delete Message


Susan,

I am assuming that you are not aware of any grandfathering in of range hoods on older homes. Thanks for your input.

John

John H. Moss
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home inspection posted July 18, 2003 05:40 AM           Edit/Delete Message


Susan,

What I meant to say is that you are not aware of any requirement of range hoods (with fan or without fan) on older homes for safety reasons (i.e. to protect cabinetry, etc.)

John

Peter Walker
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home inspection posted July 18, 2003 06:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Peter Walker   Click Here to Email Peter Walker     Edit/Delete Message


I am not aware of any requirement for a venting range hood?????????

------------------
Peter Walker in San Clemente.

Susan Cieslewicz
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home inspection posted July 18, 2003 06:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Susan Cieslewicz   Click Here to Email Susan Cieslewicz     Edit/Delete Message


Hi John,

No, no requirement that I know of. If there is a remodel of a kitchen and it's appliances, then I would say that a hood would be required (if the range specs say one is needed). Like anything, code goes by the time originally installed. Any alterations require being brought up to the current code in the area having jurisdiction.

We know ventilation is important and a safety issue so we need to note a recommendation in the report.

Hope that helps clarify!!

Sue

Dennis Bozek
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home inspection posted August 31, 2003 12:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis Bozek   Click Here to Email Dennis Bozek     Edit/Delete Message


Geee....I don't want to be a pain here lol...but most HI's are telling me that I should not quote codes to customers, but then most posts I read show some HI's are quoting codes!! Nothing against you Sue, but which is it lol?? It seems HI's need to know the codes for certain areas of the house inspection but that they should not quote them verbatim to the customer. If a HI knows of a code that is in violation in any given house, what would be the best way to indicate then that there is a problem with a certain item. I sure don't know here anymore...seems like a lot of contradiction going on lol.

Scott Patterson
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home inspection posted August 31, 2003 01:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Patterson   Click Here to Email Scott Patterson     Edit/Delete Message


Dennis,

You will figure it out in time.

------------------
Scott Patterson
Trace Home Inspections, LLC
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Joe Nernberg
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home inspection posted August 31, 2003 07:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Joe Nernberg   Click Here to Email Joe Nernberg     Edit/Delete Message


Here's the rub, bub:

If you quote a code in your report, this will be the noose for a slick attorney who will point out that you were doing a code compliant inspection and there were issues that you neglected that were also code violations.

Safer nomenclature: "The current installation does not appear to meet minimum industry standards" or "this installation may violate local mandates."

If I am challenged on a call (after the inspection), I may back it up with a page out of a code book.

------------------
Joe Nernberg

Jerry Peck
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home inspection posted August 31, 2003 08:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jerry Peck   Click Here to Email Jerry Peck     Edit/Delete Message


To quote codes, or not to quote codes, that is the question. (Sorry, couldn't help that.)

WHEN doing new construction you should, in my opinion, KNOW the code (that is, afterall, what the house was built to - okay, SHOULD HAVE BEEN built to - and that is what you are inspecting, a house built to code) and quote the code.

WHEN doing resale homes you should, in my opinion, KNOW the codes (basically) and how and when they were used (basically). You can quote them or not, your choice.

Quoting code once, or more than once, does not (so I've had attorneys tell me) mean we are doing a code inspection any more than calling on one or more safety items means we are doing a safety inspection. Just like calling out one or more electrical problems does not mean we are doing a complete electrical inspection.

I think we should know the code, to the best of our ability (which means it will vary between HIs).

Laws and local practices differ. Your mileage may vary.

------------------
Jerry Peck
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Jerry Peck
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home inspection posted August 31, 2003 08:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jerry Peck   Click Here to Email Jerry Peck     Edit/Delete Message


I made this a separate post intentionally, the previous post was about quoting codes, this is about clearances.

Range hood or no range hood, there are minimum clearances above a cooking unit (range, cook top, etc.) to combustible material. Typically, codes required side set backs of 6" from the sides of the unit, and no combustible upper cabinet less than 18" high at that 6" set back, and 30" between 6" set backs and above the cook top.

Most appliances have a lesser side set back distance, and being as they are they specific requirements, the manufacturer's installation instructions rule.

I rarely find proper clearances to combustibles above gas cook tops. Does this mean we do not call them out? No, it typically means the kitchen either gets redesigned, or nothing gets done. Guess which one happens. Yep, 99.99% of the time nothing gets done. Do we stop calling it out? Not unless you want to be named in the lawsuit after the fire.

------------------
Jerry Peck
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Susan Cieslewicz
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home inspection posted September 01, 2003 06:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Susan Cieslewicz   Click Here to Email Susan Cieslewicz     Edit/Delete Message


Dennis,

Hi! When you see my posts talking "code" it is because I'm a municipal building inspector. Also an Il. licensed home inspector. Unfortunately, codes vary based on area. (The number 1 reason I would like to see uniform codes in all states....just my personal preference).

My general opinion.....knowing code only makes for a more informed inspector (and therefore customer). As a building inspector I'm not only checking for code compliance but workmanship as well. Poor workmanship leads to problems that home inspectors usually find later when a home is sold.

Sorry to drift off John's original post about range hoods...

S.C.

Dennis Bozek
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home inspection posted September 01, 2003 06:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis Bozek   Click Here to Email Dennis Bozek     Edit/Delete Message


SEEE what I mean lol! Here is Jerry saying we should know the codes and should quote the code and there is Joe saying NO NO! Yikes...which is it? A matter of preference? Depends on the lawyer one has? Ok so we are generalists, so using Joe's statement may then be the safest thing to do.

It would seem to me though, that a HI would have to know every code about every area of the house and to me I think that is not probable in most cases. Therefore we have to be generalists by noting what is unsafe and is not to standards, but doing such in a way to cover our own 6 o'clocks! The more and more I read some of these posts it seems that we have to be good politicians and have ways of manipulating the system to make sure some home owner will not sue us later for our car, house, dog, cat and maybe even wife!! What ever happened to professionalism though?

My view of a HI is one that inspects a house from the ridge vent to the sump pump and notes everything that is out of order, whether it pertains to the code or is just plain in need of being repaired. If I were to get a home inspector to inspect my next home, this is what I would expect...and no less. I believe many people probably feel the same way.

So in this case, if I get a HI and he/she doesn't tell me that my cabinets may burn due to the fact the stove top is too close, and later on such happens...whoa...lawsuit?

So let's say he does tell me the above info and later on I do have a house fire. Well, the HI covered his 6 o'clock by informing me of such!

How can we as HI's know everything though? I would think most are better in some areas than others. I am now led to believe that if we, as HI's, miss something....OMG!! Now I see why you guys drink Merlot...a lot of stress in this job.

Russ would say..."This item is not to standards and should be inspected by a qualified individual". I agree with you Russ for that statement alone seems to be the best way to inform a client of a potential problem area and at the same time, covering your 6 o'clock. So knowing all the codes to me seems impractical, but having a general knowledge of them does not. What I have gathered since reading all of these posts though....is knowing how to cover your 6 o'clock!! No wonder E & O insurance is so expensive.

Scott Patterson
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home inspection posted September 01, 2003 07:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Patterson   Click Here to Email Scott Patterson     Edit/Delete Message


You can do what ever you want. If you are comfortable and knowledgeable of the codes in your area then quote away. You can also get the same point across by not quoting codes, all you have to say is “Per regulations”, “Per established standards” and my favorite “Per manufactures guidelines”.

Guys & Gals this is why it is so important to know what you are doing and what you are talking about. You can not know every code on the books, but you can always research them and find what you need, if you have the publications. Keep in mind that codes are always changing and you just can’t inspect a 25 year old home under the 2003 Code, inspectors that do this are the ones that find themselves in hot water.

Invest in a few code books and all of the Code Check flip books.

------------------
Scott Patterson
Trace Home Inspections, LLC
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Erby Crofutt
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home inspection posted September 01, 2003 09:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Erby Crofutt   Click Here to Email Erby Crofutt     Edit/Delete Message


I think you need to know them. That doesn't mean you need to quote them.

I inspect in about 40 to 50 different city - county AHJ areas. To know which of the national or state codes each one of those jurisdictions accepts or disagrees with is virtually impossible. When you get to that level, politics starts taking over on which codes are included / rejected.

I choose not to quote code to clients or agents.

With a client, I use the terms
"generally accepted nationwide building practices"
"generally accepted nationwide safety practices"
"manufacturer's installation instructions"

I also tell the client that "locally accepted building & safety practices" may lag behind nationwide standards. Politics and all that.

Now, when the electrician, plumber, etc calls me to ask about it, you can bet your six that I've got chapter & verse of the national codes. If the contractor tells me that jurisdiction choses not to enforce that particular one or sees it different, then I tell them to put it in writing to the client with their license number on it.

------------------
Erby Crofutt
B4U Close Home Inspections
Georgetown, Kentucky

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[This message has been edited by Erby Crofutt (edited April 11, 2004).]

Russel Kirk
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home inspection posted September 01, 2003 01:49 PM           Edit/Delete Message


Perhaps in a previous life I worked as a home inspector for Erby as I would repeat his post verbatim.

Probably my best advice, though, would be to "be consistent in what you do and don't do."

[This message has been edited by Russel Kirk (edited September 01, 2003).]

Rocky Walsh
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home inspection posted September 02, 2003 03:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rocky Walsh   Click Here to Email Rocky Walsh     Edit/Delete Message


My standard statement on codes is " This is not a code inspection, Codes that applied at the time a home was built vary greatly, Home Inspectors are not code historians". If I see a blatant code violation I address it as a safety issue if possible or I will use another way. For example I may address the accessible receptacle every 6' code item as an insignificant number of receptacles or several walls didn't have any receptacles.I avoid the code word like the plague and I'm a licensed electrician in 5 states. Just my $.02.

Rocky Walsh
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Jack McGinnis
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home inspection posted September 03, 2003 09:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jack McGinnis   Click Here to Email Jack McGinnis     Edit/Delete Message


Good point, Rocky....I wonder how many people realize,for instance that the exhaust hood over the range is not permitted to be connected on the small appliance circuits for the kitchen... many of them are connected that way and if you are going to site "code" then you would have to check for this violation and call it out, even though it's not a "safety" issue....

Richard Stanley
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home inspection posted September 03, 2003 09:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard Stanley   Click Here to Email Richard Stanley     Edit/Delete Message


I found one that was connected to gfi circuit.

Jerry Peck
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home inspection posted September 03, 2003 12:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jerry Peck   Click Here to Email Jerry Peck     Edit/Delete Message


Jack said " ... if you are going to site "code" then you would have to check for this violation and call it out, even though it's not a "safety" issue... "

Not any more than if you write up one "safety" issue and fail to write up ALL "safety" issues. Did you just do a "safety" inspection? No.

When you cite code, you are not doing a "code" inspection, thus you do not have to look for, or write up, each and every "code" item.

That type of logic would mean that if you looked at ONE shingle nail, you would then have to look at ALL shingle nails.

ONE of *anything* means ALL of *that thing*? Nope, no way can you put one that over on us.

------------------
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Jack McGinnis
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home inspection posted September 04, 2003 08:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jack McGinnis   Click Here to Email Jack McGinnis     Edit/Delete Message


Jerry...
Maybe my point wasn't clear... I am in agreement with you... the point is... no one knows all and every code in every area.. I was demonstrating that by referring to a fairly obscure code in the NEC and one that most inspectors don't know or call out... in your own post earlier, you referred to knowing the code "basically" which means "not knowing it completely" which is virtually impossible... so you do your best for your customer and you keep learning...and if someone chooses to refer to "codes" in their report that's their individual style of inspection and their business...

[This message has been edited by Jack McGinnis (edited September 04, 2003).]

Jerry Peck
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home inspection posted September 04, 2003 09:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jerry Peck   Click Here to Email Jerry Peck     Edit/Delete Message


Jack,

I fully agree with you there.

------------------
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Corey Folsom
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home inspection posted June 14, 2006 08:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Corey Folsom   Click Here to Email Corey Folsom     Edit/Delete Message


So, what is the answer to the original question (I need to know quickly if possible)?

Is there any code reference that requires range vent hoods? I have a client asking me.
Thanks,
Corey

Robert Schenck
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home inspection posted June 15, 2006 05:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Schenck   Click Here to Email Robert Schenck     Edit/Delete Message


John, ... I couldn't find in the IRC where it states an older house is required to have a range hood installed. There will always be codes to go by (some as clear as mud), and AHJ involved. But to me, common sense dictates. Personally, feeling that this is a Health and Safety issue, I would point out the disadvantages of not having a range hood installed, and what the consequences could lead to. Then, simply leave it up to the buyer (seller) to take action. I’ve never come across a house with no range hood installed. But if and when I do, I’d probably write it up as “Recommendation” only.

That probably didn’t answer your question, but when in doubt ….. I always call upon common sense and logic – code or no code. Seeing the house you inspected didn’t already have a range hood, you can not refer to the manufactures installation instructions. But if it did, this is what the IRC 2003 says about it.

--------------------------------------------
IRC 2003 - RANGE HOODS
M1502.1 General.
Range hoods shall discharge to the outdoors through a single-wall duct. The duct serving the hood shall have a smooth interior surface, shall be air tight and shall be equipped with a back-draft damper. Ducts serving range hoods shall not terminate in an attic or crawl space or areas inside the building.
Exception: Where installed in accordance with the manufacturer's installation instructions, and where mechanical or natural ventilation is otherwise provided, listed and labeled ductless range hoods shall not be required to discharge to the outdoors.
--------------------------------------------

Robert

John Arnold
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home inspection posted June 15, 2006 05:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for John Arnold   Click Here to Email John Arnold     Edit/Delete Message


"Exception: Where installed in accordance with the manufacturer's installation instructions, and where mechanical or natural ventilation is otherwise provided, listed and labeled ductless range hoods shall not be required to discharge to the outdoors."
I assume this means if the kitchen has an openable window, and the hood is designed for ductless operation, then it doesn't need to exhaust to the outside. It's pretty rare around here to find a range hood that discharges outside, although that's obviously the best way to go.

------------------
John Arnold
Philadelphia PA

=======================================================

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Scott Patterson
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home inspection posted June 15, 2006 06:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Patterson   Click Here to Email Scott Patterson     Edit/Delete Message


A vent hood is not required. It is a good idea, but not required.

Darren Miller
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home inspection posted June 20, 2006 07:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Darren Miller   Click Here to Email Darren Miller     Edit/Delete Message


I disagree:

M1502.1 General
Range hoods shall discharge to the outdoors through a single-wall duct. The duct serving the hood shall have a smooth interior surface, shall be air tight and shall be equipped with a backdraft damper. Ducts serving range hoods shall not terminate in an attic or crawlspace or areas inside the building.

Exception: Where installed in accordance with the manufacture's installation instructions, and where mechanical or matural ventilation is otherwise provided, listed and labled ductless range hoods shall not be required to discharge to the outdoors.


Darren
www.aboutthehouseinspections.com

Scott Patterson
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home inspection posted June 20, 2006 08:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Patterson   Click Here to Email Scott Patterson     Edit/Delete Message


I don't see anything that says a vent hood is required. This only says how it is to be installed, not that it is required.

Rick Hurst
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home inspection posted June 20, 2006 09:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick Hurst   Click Here to Email Rick Hurst     Edit/Delete Message


In the Great State of Texas range hood exhaust fans are required per TREC standards.

You can have all the windows you want in the kitchen, doesn't matter. Still have to have one.

Scott Patterson
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home inspection posted June 20, 2006 03:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Patterson   Click Here to Email Scott Patterson     Edit/Delete Message


quote:
In the Great State of Texas range hood exhaust fans are required per TREC standards.

How can the TREC require a home to have an exhaust fan? Or is this considered a defect under the auspicious of the TREC?

Big difference between the two.

Rick Hurst
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home inspection posted June 20, 2006 04:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick Hurst   Click Here to Email Rick Hurst     Edit/Delete Message


From the TREC standards.

See C-5 below

(c) Range exhaust vent. The inspector shall:
(1) report as in need of repair any deficiencies in the filter, vent pipe, light and switches;
(2) inspect the operation of the blower and report as in need of repair any unusual sounds or vibration levels, or if the blower does not operate at all speeds;
(3) report as in need of repair a vent pipe that does not terminate outside the structure when the unit is not of recirculating type or configuration.
(4) report as in need of repair a vent pipe that is of inadequate material; and
(5) report as in need of repair the absence of a range exhaust vent.

Russel Ray
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home inspection posted June 20, 2006 04:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Russel Ray   Click Here to Email Russel Ray     Edit/Delete Message


So it's a TREC issue and not a code issue.

I also note whether the hood is a recirculating system or an exhaust system. I hate recirculating systems because, at 6'4", they just blow everything into my face and fog up my glasses.

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home inspection posted June 21, 2006 07:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob Harper   Click Here to Email Bob Harper     Edit/Delete Message


Part of your job is calling out known safety defects, whether there is an applicable codee section or not.
ANSI stds. allow for up to 800 PPM CO from gas ovens and ranges. Where's that going to go? What about all the moisture from cooking? How about the mess all that aerosolized fat is making of the house? Odors?

While a range hood may or may not have been a code requirement at the time of construction, based on the factors I listed above, you know it is a good idea.

And you thought it was the tryptophan in the turkey making you sleepy on Thanksgiving!

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home inspection posted June 21, 2006 05:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jerry Peck   Click Here to Email Jerry Peck     Edit/Delete Message


Of course ... IF YOU DO CALL OUT missing *ducted* range hoods ... make sure you are not creating a problem which is not already there.

IF there are other gas appliances, maybe it will not be the range making you sleepy at Thanksgiving, it just might be the 'now backdrafting' water heater and furnace ...

Be careful what you recommend.

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Jerry Peck
South Florida

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Bob Harper
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home inspection posted June 21, 2006 06:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob Harper   Click Here to Email Bob Harper     Edit/Delete Message


Jerry pointed out, "IF there are other gas appliances, maybe it will not be the range making you sleepy at Thanksgiving, it just might be the 'now backdrafting' water heater and furnace ... "

Absolutely true!

You and point to ASHRAE 62.2, which, though not a code in most places, is a nationally recognized std. that calls for balanced houses with MUA engineered for combustion appliances in the absence of a blower door test confirming at least 0.35 ACH.

You can also follow Jerry's thought and say the same thing about replacing windows, caulking, weatherizing, etc. So, do you withhold those measures to avoid backdrafting? Hell no! You do them but you take a holistic approach and address the entire house--not just one part.

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home inspection posted June 21, 2006 06:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jerry Peck   Click Here to Email Jerry Peck     Edit/Delete Message


"You can also follow Jerry's thought and say the same thing about replacing windows, caulking, weatherizing, etc."

No, you cannot follow MY thought THERE, my thought makes sense.

"replacing windows"

"caulking"

"weatherizing"

That is like ADDING an exhaust fan?

Nope.

One is 'putting it back like it was' and the other is 'modifying it by ADDING something which WAS NOT THERE'.

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Jerry Peck
South Florida

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Monte Lunde
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home inspection posted June 21, 2006 07:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Monte Lunde   Click Here to Email Monte Lunde     Edit/Delete Message


Rick:

From the TREC standards. See C-5 below
(c) Range exhaust vent. The inspector shall:
(1) report as in need of repair any deficiencies in the filter, vent pipe, light and switches;
(2) inspect the operation of the blower and report as in need of repair any unusual sounds or vibration levels, or if the blower does not operate at all speeds;
(3) report as in need of repair a vent pipe that does not terminate outside the structure when the unit is not of recirculating type or configuration.
(4) report as in need of repair a vent pipe that is of inadequate material; and
(5) report as in need of repair the absence of a range exhaust vent.

Monte:
I do not read the above standard that TREC reguires a range hood. It looks like to me that if there is a range hood, than you have to inspect the range hood for the following problems.

Jerry Peck
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home inspection posted June 21, 2006 07:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jerry Peck   Click Here to Email Jerry Peck     Edit/Delete Message


Rick,

Before you reply, read (5) carefully ...

So, recirculating range hoods are reported as a deficiency?

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Jerry Peck
South Florida

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Rick Hurst
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home inspection posted June 21, 2006 07:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick Hurst   Click Here to Email Rick Hurst     Edit/Delete Message


Jerry,

Read #3

Rick

Jerry Peck
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home inspection posted June 21, 2006 07:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jerry Peck   Click Here to Email Jerry Peck     Edit/Delete Message


Rick,

I did.

But did you READ (5)?

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Jerry Peck
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Jerry Peck
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home inspection posted June 21, 2006 08:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jerry Peck   Click Here to Email Jerry Peck     Edit/Delete Message


Here is some help. (bold is mine)

"(3) report as in need of repair a vent pipe that does not terminate outside the structure when the unit is not of recirculating type or configuration." (Jerry's note: This means that the "vent pipe" *IS* there, but that if it does not terminate outside the structure, it must be called out as a repair. Unless, of course, it does not have a vent pipe - i.e., recirculating - as there would *not be* a "vent pipe".)

"(5) report as in need of repair the absence of a range exhaust vent." (Jerry's note: Recirculating types *do not have* an "exhaust vent", and as such would need to be called out for repair under this section. Now, this could easily be corrected by including the same exception for recirculating ones as is at (3), but that exception *is not* there at this time.)

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Jerry Peck
South Florida

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Jim Luttrall
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home inspection posted June 21, 2006 08:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim Luttrall   Click Here to Email Jim Luttrall     Edit/Delete Message


Jerry, I have to agree with Rick on this one, 3 comes before 5 and would therefore logically modify the meaning of 5 to include the exception created in 3.
Who's one first?
Jim

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home inspection posted June 21, 2006 08:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jerry Peck   Click Here to Email Jerry Peck     Edit/Delete Message


Jim,

(3) is referring to the "vent pipe" and "terminating outdoors"

(5) is referring to being "exhausted", and recirculating types "do not exhaust".

And, no, (3) does not modify (5). At least not as written. (5) should be modified in and of itself if that is the intent - (3) *IS* referring *to vent pipes terminating outdoors*.

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Jerry Peck
South Florida

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Jim Luttrall
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home inspection posted June 21, 2006 08:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim Luttrall   Click Here to Email Jim Luttrall     Edit/Delete Message


Jerry, I understand your take and as you will probably say "the SOP as written"; but the intent seems to be to allow recirculation hoods and to call out as defective the lack of a hood. Maybe you could be a proof reader for the guys rewriting the standards. For now, I will continue with the logical reading of the intent of the SOP even if grammatically skewed; otherwise 75% of all modern construction would fail to pass muster. I do call out a concern if a recirculating hood is used for a gas range.
Jim

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home inspection posted June 21, 2006 08:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim Luttrall   Click Here to Email Jim Luttrall     Edit/Delete Message


Jerry, one other thought; technically all vent hoods with blowers have an exhaust vent or they won't function properly. I call out the convertible units quite often if installed incorrectly. If the internal ports are not positioned correctly, no air flows through the filters and exits the exhaust vent (inside the house or outside the house) So yes the recirculating hoods do have an exhaust vent, it just happens to exhaust back into the house. Just food for thought!
Jim

Jerry Peck
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home inspection posted June 21, 2006 08:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jerry Peck   Click Here to Email Jerry Peck     Edit/Delete Message


Jim,

So, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that (5) is asking you to check for something which cannot possibly exist?

That's even worse than I thought.

"I do call out a concern if a recirculating hood is used for a gas range."

Why? Now, that is getting back to where we started, gas ranges and no requirement for range hoods, but, if you (the HI) were to recommend one, then would you be liable for the negative effects created by installing one in a home which did not have one?

More food for thought.

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Jerry Peck
South Florida

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Jim Luttrall
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home inspection posted June 21, 2006 09:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim Luttrall   Click Here to Email Jim Luttrall     Edit/Delete Message


Jerry, the defect can exist, just not on a CORRECTLY functioning installation. So like it or not the range needs a hood, recirculating or standard.

I don't call for the installation of anything, just note the lack of required items, no different than any other defect. The Qualified Tradesman has the liability of correct installation. Then CO detectors for the screw-ups that we know will happen!
We can't prevent what might happen, but we can call out what we see that is happening.
No vent hoods is a safety hazard in my opinion. A hood installed according to the man. instructions should be a safe product.
Much safer IMO than no hood or a recirculating hood for gas appliances.
Jim

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home inspection posted June 22, 2006 04:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jerry Peck   Click Here to Email Jerry Peck     Edit/Delete Message


Jim,

"So like it or not the range needs a hood, recirculating or standard."

Such all encompassing statements always (at least "almost always", and does in this case) ring out as untrue - like it or not.

"the range needs a hood"

No, all that you have shown simply means that Texas HOME INSPECTORS are looking for hoods over ranges - WHETHER IT IS NEEDED OR NOT.

NO ONE has yet addressed the question asked by someone else: What does the Texas building code say about them?

Like it or not (your phrase, not mine) ... but I do like that phrase, I just let others use it first ... LIKE IT OR NOT ... the question asked by Corey from CA "Is there any code reference that requires range vent hoods?" is answered with "No. Range hoods are not required." All chest thumping by you in TX aside - range hoods are not required, and may not even be required in TX - show us the code.

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Jerry Peck
South Florida

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Jim Luttrall
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home inspection posted June 22, 2006 06:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim Luttrall   Click Here to Email Jim Luttrall     Edit/Delete Message


Jerry, seems you have taken my statements in a way I have not intended. I have not done any "chest thumping" that I am aware of, just stating the facts of what TEXAS SOP calls for and what we as home inspectors are required to use as a standard, whether we "like it or not". I thought it was clear by earlier posts by others what was called for in the codes. I only refer to what I do and what standards I am inspecting to, your mileage may vary.
Jim

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home inspection posted June 22, 2006 06:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Patterson   Click Here to Email Scott Patterson     Edit/Delete Message


Wow, all of this over a question about the requirement of Kitchen Exhaust Fans.

Everyone needs to keep in mind that the TX inspection SoP were written in part and with the help of the real estate community. Many items that TX inspectors are required to report on are due in part to what the real estate community felt were important. Agents were surveyed and items that they felt were important to the buyer were added to the TX report format.

[This message has been edited by Scott Patterson (edited June 22, 2006).]

Phillip Stojanik
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home inspection posted June 22, 2006 06:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Phillip Stojanik   Click Here to Email Phillip Stojanik     Edit/Delete Message


Don’t read too much into the current TREC SoP. It was written by a group of guys debating the merits of this, that, and the other thing just as is going on here in this thread. TREC SoP generation was (and remains) a committee process and sometimes things pass committee that are not well thought out or clearly written and compromises are inevitable. Keep in mind that there are mistakes in the current SoP and there has historically been some misinterpretation of the current Standards by TREC staff and inspectors themselves.

The new SoP that we are currently working on takes a different approach and does not have all of the prescriptive language that is included in the current standard. We have found that it is impossible to list every little thing that an inspector should be looking for and if we just throw in a few examples then (some) inspectors take that to mean that those are the ONLY things they need to be looking for. The intent of the proposed SoP is to be all inclusive in regard to the items and systems listed without having to list everything that could possibly be wrong with the listed items and systems.

This has allowed us to create a more readable document for inspectors and the public that explains what an inspection is and what an inspection is not in the State of Texas. In the SoP Subcommittee’s view, this allows inspectors to exercise more professional judgement and encourages them to do more rather than tacitly granting permission (or even encouraging them) to do a bare minimum job that has been arbitrarily defined.

A commentary document will provide more specifics about what inspectors should be looking for without cluttering up the SoP language. We hope to get industry (TAREI, ASHI, NACHI and others) to help with the creation of the commentary.

Now to drift back on topic…

Beyond manufacturer’s requirements for specific stoves and cooktops, there is no building code in Texas that I am aware of that requires a hood vent to be in place (vented to outside air or otherwise) but some local AHJs may chose to require them. The current TREC rule is intended to mean that we will call the absence of a hood as an item in need of repair. Good, bad, or indifferent that is the current rule but you should not look for Code justification for everything in the current TREC SoP.

Keep in mind that the current TREC SoP requires the inspector to “report as in need of repair the presence of non-combustible hearth extension.” The last time I checked the code book a hearth extension was required to be non-combustible! That is obviously just one of the unintentional mistakes in the current TREC SoP and mercifully one that enforcement does not enforce.

Richard Stanley
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home inspection posted June 22, 2006 10:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard Stanley   Click Here to Email Richard Stanley     Edit/Delete Message


Phil, Should have read "non-distinguishable hearth extension".
Do you figure the 'new and improved' version will roll out 1/1/7

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home inspection posted June 27, 2006 02:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gary Cox   Click Here to Email Gary Cox     Edit/Delete Message


Gotta tell you...today I walked over to a Prince William County code inspector sitting in his truck at 7-11...told him who I was and simply asked
"Is there a code requiring hood vents over stoves?"

ANSWER: Nope

That's the story here in our town.


....in all counties I work in...I find the same story. I write it up as a recommendation.

G.Cox

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home inspection posted June 27, 2006 03:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Phillip Stojanik   Click Here to Email Phillip Stojanik     Edit/Delete Message


Richard,

The proposed SoP received some tweaks after the public commentary period just yesterday at the TREC Inspector Committee meeting. The Inspector Committee voted to send the tweaked SoP back to the Commissioners for their consideration to adopt. We might however be required to send it up for another round of public comment if it is deemed that our tweaks were substantial enough to warrant that.

At the same meeting we did some tweaking of the new standard reporting form. The proposed report form has been changed to match the proposed standards so all of this should come out at the same time assuming the Commissioners accept what we are proposing. If all goes smoothly then we may be implementing a new SoP and a revised standard report from some time early next year but I would be surprised if all of this gets approved and put into place by January 1st.

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