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Topic:   Without any guidelines for inspectors, how do you know your home is safe and sound? - 905 visits (1 today, 1 this week)

Brian Hannigan
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posted March 24, 2007 12:49 PM            

James Quinlan bought a 30-year-old house on Shelton Street in Nashua in June after a home inspection showed no major defects. He hadn’t lived there a month before the plumbing failed, the electrical system threatened to burn down the house and mold turned up that hadn’t been detected by the inspector, Quinlan said.....

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070324/NEWS01/203240344/-1/news

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Joe Griffin
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posted March 24, 2007 01:14 PM            

Hey Brian, great find. Yes, once again, licensing fails to pass. This is getting old. I have spent many hours on past bills that went nowhere. Very frustrating.

Interesting to hear the comments from my local competition. The home inspector looks bad here, but there is always two sides to the story. Hmm.....

Keep L@@kin

Erby Crofutt
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posted March 24, 2007 02:32 PM            

And licensing would have prevented this how??

------------------
Erby Crofutt
B4U Close Home Inspections & Kentucky Radon Testing
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Joe Griffin
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posted March 24, 2007 02:39 PM            

Erby, it wouldn't have prevented a bad inspection, but a buyer would have more protection. With no licensing or regulations in place, there is no real "legal" avenue for lawyers to pursue.

My feeling is that licensing will eventually weed out bad inspectors, or prevent part-timers who do not keep current with continuing ed.

Licensing is not a panacea.

But it is certainly better than the cesspool of zero experience, zero training, and zero requirements we have now.

Keep L@@kin

Joseph P. Hagarty
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posted March 24, 2007 02:50 PM            

http://www.ashi.org/find/details.asp?plfd=8100&m=17012FH

Joe Griffin
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posted March 24, 2007 02:53 PM            

Hey Joe, the article only says that this gentleman you traced down owns the company. His worker may not have been ASHI certified!

You do note that he says his company performed the inspection to another state's standards, not ASHI's. Interesting.

Keep L@@Kin

[This message has been edited by Joe Griffin (edited March 24, 2007).]

Jerry McCarthy
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posted March 24, 2007 04:15 PM            

"Without state regulations, there’s no legal standard for home inspectors."
Hogwash....... This guy is getting bad legal advice as we all know anyone can sue anybody - anytime - for anything!
State licensing does not insure home buyers and sellers are going to get a professional inspection nor does lack of state licensing. It does prove there are folks out there performing home inspections because they think they're home inspectors.

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Jack Feldmann
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posted March 24, 2007 04:54 PM            

At least with State licensing, there would be a Standard the inspectors would have to adhere to.

Now if this guy is an ASHI member, he is required by his membership, to perform inspections according to ASHI SOP.

Of course, this could be a case of some guy that doesn't bother to actually read his report. The inspector may have done a bang up job and told him everything he needed to know about the house, but he didn't read the report, or ask for clarification after the inspection.

JF

Jerry Peck
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posted March 24, 2007 06:04 PM            

I found several parts "interesting".

This is one of them:
“It’s long overdue,” Gray said. “It protects the consumer from people who don’t do fair inspections. Secondly, it keeps the home inspector from having a target on their back."

A "fair inspection"? What to heck is a "fair inspection"? "Fair" to whom or to what?

Then "it keeps the inspector from having a target on their back."? That's not what licensing is for. Somebody has their priorities mixed up.

"However, Bob Gray, the owner of Hinet Corp., the Londonderry home inspection company Quinlan hired, maintains the home was properly inspected based on Massachusetts licensing standards."

I thought ASHI inspector *also* had to inspect to *ASHI* Standards??

"“I think he realized he got taken, but not by us,” Gray said."

By whom, then, did he get taken?

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Joseph Burkeson
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posted March 24, 2007 07:00 PM            

It appears the licensing zealots in New Hampshire got soundly spanked this week, you can listen to the proceedings here.

Remember a day without licensing is like a day with sunshine.

Phillip Stojanik
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posted March 25, 2007 10:18 PM            

For some great information from both sides of the licensing isle, check out the .pdf posted at this thread.
http://www.inspectionnews.com/ubb/Forum14/HTML/000814.html

Scott Patterson
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posted March 26, 2007 09:27 AM            

If you look at those that are against licensing of home inspectors, they are for he most part in unlicensed states (makes sense). Many are also new to the profession and would have to acquire additional education and examinations to get a license.

Then we have those that are in licensed states and they really don't have a problem with licensing. I have worked in two licensed states, and it's really not that bad. In fact I have had my butt saved from a potential lawsuit because of the license law.

Joe Griffin
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posted March 26, 2007 09:49 AM            

Scott, I'm with you. This state needs a formal threshold, most inspectors here don't even belong to an association, never mind one with good stringent requirements like ASHI.

So we continue with black eyes such as this article which affects all of us.

And, I think it will help eliminate the inexperienced, unproven, lowballers who continue to undermine this industry.

But we have taken another giant step backward. I worked on the last bill that met a quick demise, it is frustrating, and worse than watching sausage get made.

Keep L@@kin

Joseph Burkeson
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posted March 26, 2007 11:35 AM            

Realize, those who oppose legislation have a built-in unfair advantage over those who favor it; the simple fact is more bills fail to become law then get signed, there is a natural bias against.

Furthermore, many things have to come together and line up in a two-party political system for a bill to pass into law and many times all that is required for a bill to fail is the perception of disharmony across the voting public.

Those who wish for a bill to become law must overcome two natural laws or tendencies, the first is inertia the second is entropy these forces help to prevent a bill from even getting out of committee or hasten the breakdown of the communication that is necessary to rally support. It appears that the best way to fight licensing is to first deny the proponents a platform, then do whatever can be done to destabilize the process by which a license can be reasonably assured to pass into law.

Remember it takes hundreds of man hours to diligently craft a licensing bill and then it takes thousands of dollars to see that bill through the legislative process but it only takes one dedicated person fighting against a bill to spoil all that hard work and effort sending licensing proponents back to the drawing board next year to fight the very same uphill battle once again

Licensing solves nothing, chaos rules!

Matt Hawley
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posted March 26, 2007 01:23 PM            

The only fair bill is one that allows all in business when the bill becomes law to be able to stay in business without interruption. Most of these bills have nothing to do with consumer protection.

There are always going to be inspectors that perform poorly whether new or old, licensed or not. That’s how it is with any industry or profession people do make mistakes. The market will cleanse itself of incompetent inspectors.

.

Joe Griffin
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posted March 26, 2007 01:40 PM            

Matt: Your words: "The only fair bill is one that allows all in business when the bill becomes law to be able to stay in business without interruption."

I couldn't disagree more. There are Home Inspectors in business right now who are hurting the industry as a whole.

Just because they hung a shingle out and jumped into this business without the proper formal training, zero related experience, no continuing ed, no National Proctored exam, nothing, they deserve to be protected by a licensing umbrella?

There should be strict guidelines as to who can be licensed, I don't care if they have been in business for ten days, or ten years.
If they can't pass muster, do not grandfather them. That hurts everybody, mostly the consumer.

Keep L@@kin

Matt Hawley
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posted March 26, 2007 02:08 PM            

Joe,

There are many inspectors that have been in business for years that are hurting the industry as a whole. Licensing solves nothing. All inspectors should have to take an exam and continuing education or whatever requirements their state requires them to do.

But to say one who has been in business for 5 years should be grandfathered and someone who has only been in business for 3 years has to meet additional requirements, like a 120 hour class and a state exam is BS. If a bill is really about consumer protection every inspector should take the 120 hour class (one can never stop learning, correct?) then pass a state exam, perhaps E&O, that would help protect the consumer.

Scott Patterson
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posted March 26, 2007 02:17 PM            

quote:

---

The only fair bill is one that allows all in business when the bill becomes law to be able to stay in business without interruption. Most of these bills have nothing to do with consumer protection.

---

[This message has been edited by Scott Patterson (edited March 26, 2007).]

Matt Hawley
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posted March 26, 2007 02:40 PM            

Scott,

I never said a license law is no good because it will put inspectors out of business. I did say licensing has nothing to do with consumer protection, that it solves nothing and that there are always going to be bad or unethical inspectors with or without licensing.

If a state that is not licensed decides to become a licensed state it should either allow all in business to be able to stay in business without interruption or every inspector should meet the new requirements set by the state, or at a minimum take the state exam. I believe if there is going to be a grandfather clause it should be based on the number of inspections and not the time in business. Just my opinions, I respect yours and am open to them. I just can’t see why anyone in a unlicensed state would want to be licensed.

Joseph Burkeson
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posted March 26, 2007 03:04 PM            

Most licensing proponents are all imbued with the notion that licensing will somehow magically raise the bar and create universal goodness throughout our profession. They invent a preponderance of evidence to convince themselves that they are doing gods work and are entitled to display righteousness indignation with those who seek no government socialization of our profession.

I once thought like this until I was educated by one of the most respected individuals working within our profession on the quandary of home inspector licensing legislation and how it was not living up to its billing.

All anyone need do is to Google Janet Swandby and you will be presented with the real truth in regards to the utter failure of home inspector licensing to raise the bar or improve the profession.

Jon Randolph
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posted March 27, 2007 05:07 AM            

As one who lives in a licensing state. It should be to the benefit of our indusrtry. However when Indiana went to licensing, they required nothing of those already in the business and grandfathered them in. As a newer inspector, I was required to attend a training course (that did little for me but promise that I would be making tens of thousands per month)and pass the NHIE. I do believe that the NHIE is a good idea as it at least shows that you have some knowledge, but I thought that it was much too easy. The inspectors who were grandfathered only had to show that they had performed 25 inspections in the past year. The bad inspectors that were flooding our market 5 or more years ago are still flooding our market today. Realtors love them because they do fast (1-1/2 hour) inspections and give the buyer the "piece of mind" that they want them to have. I have actually had realtors tapping their fingernails after 3 hours asking "How much longer? My usual inspector would have been done long before now." "How come every (75-100 year old) house that you have inspected for me has termite damage? My other inspectors have only found 2 other houses in the past year with termite damage." "Why do you find gas leaks in 2 of the last 3 homes that you inspected for me? My other inspector doesn't usually find any leaks." "Why did you recommend that a HVAC technician evaluate the 3 furnaces (all with heavy rust/corrosion on the heat exchanger, one had heavy soot outside one of the burners and neither home had the gas turned on) in the double and single family foreclosures you inspected last week? You can't refer an HVAC evaluation on every home that you inspect."

Indiana does require insurance but it is only 100,000 GL. There is no E&O requirement. In my opinion, Gl is mainly for the property owner, should you damage something during the inspection. E&O should be required to protect our real interest, the client. I carry E&O and have since I started, but it's hard to set my price to reflect the protection provided by the E&O when so many do not have it and are willing to work for less.

Long story short, if licensing was done right, I think that it would greatly benefit the good inspectors in our industry but when not done right it is not any different than a state that does not require licensing. Other than the licensing fee that the state gets.

------------------
Jon Randolph
Integrity Residential Service, LLC
Indianapolis, Indiana

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Matt Hawley
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posted March 27, 2007 07:15 AM            

Jon,

Licensing solves nothing. Your post is a perfect example. Many states with licensing actually have Realtor Associations involved with the writing of their bill (Talk about conflict of interest). I think a perfectly crafted bill one that is fair to all and truly protects the consumer would be ok. I truly fill leaving government out of our profession is even better.

Our proposed bill in Florida grandfathers those that have been in business for 3 years, they would not even have to take an exam. Everyone should have to take an exam if we become a licensed state, that would at least ensure the inspectors know the basics. In Florida there are many special interest groups whose main intent is to weed out some of their competition, they hide behind consumer protection as their motive. E&O insurance would help to protect the consumer, but they don’t want to hear that, and dance around it. I think our profession is fine I’m not against some form of self governing regulation, and mandatory continuing education. I think our profession is fine without licensing, just my opinion some will agree and some will disagree. I look at it from all prospectives and value the opinions of all, I just cant see how licensing helps, nor why anyone in an un-licensed state would push for it.

Joseph Burkeson
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posted March 27, 2007 06:10 PM            

Matt Hawley said... "I look at it from all prospectives and value the opinions of all, I just cant see how licensing helps, nor why anyone in an un-licensed state would push for it."

Matt,

Well you can rest assured that the proponents are not some group of irate home buyers, if that were the case we would have been licensed a long time ago.

All licensing has been devised and driven from within our profession by groups of home inspectors seeking to get an advantage over their competition.

Fortunately, as of late the legislators have caught on to this gerrymandering by the home inspection profession and thus have passed weak watered-down HI laws. The net effect of weak licensing laws tend to cause the home inspector ranks to double in licensed states nullifying any competitive edge and rendering associations worthless.

Jerry Peck
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posted March 27, 2007 06:35 PM            

"rendering associations worthless"

Only for those association whose emphasis is based on marketing, marketing, marketing, branding, and more marketing.

Some HI associations are intended for education, education, education, with no pretense toward marketing.

FABI is intended for education, education, and more education. Marketing is not FABI's thrust.

FABI is a place for HIs to get together, meet each other and discuss whatever comes up, mostly HI stories, and to learn from each other as well as the speakers who are brought in for the quarterly meetings.

Yes, I know you will dispute this and say that FABI is 'for licensing', and FABI is, because its members are (the MAJORITY of them, it was voted on, the MAJORITY voted *FOR* licensing). Licensing and education go hand in hand, so there is no conflict there. One who is licensed must maintain their education, likewise, licensed or not, an HI must maintain their education.

Think 'getting along together for the education of each HI and for the education of all HIs'. First, though, one must learn how to meet the 'plays well with others' rule from grade school.

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Matt Hawley
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posted March 27, 2007 07:10 PM            

Jerry,

I agree continuing education is very important. I just think some kind of self governing regulation without government involvement would be better. I think all in business should be able to remain in business when and if a bill becomes law without interruption. I think FABI is a great association with excellent guest speakers. I am against licensing, but not regulation that truly protects the consumer. I don’t think licensing will solve anything. There are going to be bad and good, ethical and unethical inspectors with or without licensing, the same goes for any profession. I think things are fine just the way they are.

Also Jerry I always look forward to reading your post. Thank you for always sharing your knowledge with us.

Thom Walker
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posted March 27, 2007 10:38 PM            

It's the American way to always complicate things by bundling issues. I'd like to see the issue of E&O insurance separated from the discussion of licensing.

I am a believer in meaningful licensing. I wanted (want) this to be a profession. And professionals are licensed. But, it's not a profession in Texas.

We have three classifications; apprentice, inspector, and professional inspector. At first, I seldom saw a professional inspector. Then I had to throw a rock to hit one. Soon, I had to spit to hit a Professional inspector. Now I can drool and get three soaking wet. When the State failed to get a meaningful apprentice program running, they created a fast track program from apprentice to inspector. I think it was an additional 30 hours or so of CE. When TAR made noise that there were too few inspectors, they reduced the 200 inspections as an inspector to become a professional inspector to 60 hours more CE. We now have guys coming out of the diploma mills as "professional inspectors", having yet to do a single inspection.

None of this has affected my income. That's not the point. I'll make a respectable living at this no matter how many are licensed. I welcome Realtor referrals, but truthfully, I don't get many.

I believe the answer is in education and required annual CE credits to retain the license. None of the States have high enough requirements. Texas, for example should require 32 or more a year, not 16. I would have no problem with required testing every 5 years or so. I do think that grandfathering licensees is a totally rediculous argument to support. How can we seriously argue that time on the job automatically better qualifies an HI.

As for the separate issue of E&O; I will never be a proponent until the lawyers who created it create an equally incidious device to allow us to recover all the costs we expend in defending ourselves and we "win". The argument of filing a frivolous lawsuit suit is moot in Texas. In order to win, one must PROVE that the plaintiff KNEW that their claims were frivolous. It might even be palatable if awards were held to the value of actual damages, plus well defined "reasonable" attorney's fees.

I'd rather see a $5000 initial bond to the State paid by every inspector coupled with a $500 license fee annually. In the case of Texas, that would mean an immediate hit of $50 mil from the bonds of existing inspectors. As long as the numbers stayed at 10,000 the State would generate another 5M a year in those. All E&O would be dropped.

Make the same requirement of Realtors and brokers. Now we have a recovery fund that is based on the consumer's best interests.

Coupled with a State mandated contract of responsibility (not pricing) and mandatory binding arbitration. I believe the above would eliminate the lawyer profit motive and protect the consumer.

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Matt Hawley
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posted March 28, 2007 02:36 AM            

Thom,

I think the idea of a recovery fund is a great idea. That should be done in every state.

Joseph Burkeson
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posted March 28, 2007 03:16 AM            

Jerry,

I agree that licensing is closely related to education and will go as far to say that once a home inspector really becomes educated they realize that licensing solves nothing.

Joe.

Joe Griffin
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posted March 28, 2007 04:19 AM            

Thom, you hit the nail on the head with this comment: "I am a believer in meaningful licensing. I wanted (want) this to be a profession. And professionals are licensed."

It can't be any clearer than that. If we want to be professionals, we have to be held to the same standards.

Everyone talks about how important we are